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privinfle, sînt optimistæ. Pentru cæ aø crede, mai degrabæ, cæ lumea are nevoie depaøi foarte mici pentru a face ceva. Nu le pretind oamenilor sæ facæ un soi de artæpoliticæ øi bannere, spun doar cæ trebuie sæ fim critici øi vigilenfli faflæ de condifliile încare lucræm øi sæ încercæm sæ exprimæm asta.¬ Un alt lucru despre care aø dori sæ øtiu mai mult, pornind de la textul tæu, estedistincflia pe care o faci între artæ politizatæ øi artæ politicæ. Ce înseamnæ asta? Caree diferenfla?√ Mæ refer mai mult la politizarea comunitæflii artistice. Din perspectiva conøtiinfleipolitice, e ceva ce ar trebui sæ existe.¬ Adicæ ar trebui sæ existe, dar separat de calitæflile formale ale obiectelor artistice,cum ar fi un pictor abstract care ar avea conøtiinflæ politicæ, însæ aceasta sæ nu aibænicio repercusiune asupra operei sale…√ Exact, nu ar trebui sæ aibæ repercusiuni asupra operei sale. Mæ gîndesc la lumeaartei ca la o comunitate, iar aceastæ comunitate trebuie sæ aibæ un fel de conøtiinflæca întreg. Dar acest lucru nu trebuie neapærat sæ se transpunæ în producflia efectivæa lucrærilor.¬ Crezi cæ alte pæturi sociale au mai multæ conøtiinflæ politicæ decît comunitateaartiøtilor?√ Cu siguranflæ…¬ De exemplu?√ Eu lucrez într-un anumit domeniu, el e cel pe care îl cunosc øi, desigur, nu preapot compara, întrucît cealaltæ muncæ de care mæ ocupam înainte era legatæ de societateacivilæ, fiind, evident, cu totul politizatæ, aøa cæ nu vreau sæ generalizez, dar credcæ cei care lucreazæ în domeniul cultural au un rol mult mai important decît cei carelucreazæ în alte domenii øi ar trebui sæ fie politizafli într-o oarecare mæsuræ. Dar ceeace e cu adeværat important în ce priveøte practicile individuale e faptul cæ problemafline de instituflii; nu fline de indivizi. Institufliile creeazæ automat în jurul lor unfel de atmosferæ care poate încuraja simflul critic sau poate încuraja apatia, øi astaeste ceea ce încerc eu sæ spun. Nu dau vina pe indivizi. Desigur, ea le aparfline înparte, dar nu vreau sæ spun cæ oamenilor nu le pasæ. Chiar nu existæ evenimentepentru un astfel de angajament, øi tocmai împotriva acestui lucru trebuie reacflionat.¬ Dar, în acest sens, ce obiecflii ai faflæ de arta politicæ propriu-zisæ?√ Nu am nimic împotriva artei politice.¬ Spuneai cæ nu-fli place acest gen de artæ.√ Atunci e vorba doar de preferinfle personale.¬ Aøteptærile tale faflæ de comunitatea artisticæ sînt ca aceasta sæ fie mai politizatæ,însæ, în acelaøi timp, pærerile tale personale despre grupuri artistice pe care tocmaile-am menflionat, ca Superflex sau N55, øi alflii ca ei care au, realmente, o conøtiinflæpoliticæ, sau care sînt activiøti, øi aøa mai departe … sînt cæ, de fapt, nu îfli prea placeacest gen de artæ. Nu e aceasta o contradicflie?√ Nu prea væd contradicflia. Øi îmi plac anumite tipuri de ceea ce numeøti artæpoliticæ. Dar nu asta e ceea ce vreau sæ spun, pentru cæ eu cred cæ fiecare ar trebuisæ facæ arta pe care vrea s-o facæ.¬ Øtiind doar cæ principalul mijloc de expresie al unui artist este arta sa…√ Exact. Øi dacæ este politicæ, este politicæ; øi dacæ e o chestiune de culoare,atunci e o chestiune de culoare øi dacæ e vorba de probleme sociale, atunci e vorbade probleme sociale…¬ Pur øi simplu, nu pot sæ-mi imaginez cæ cineva are conøtiinflæ politicæ øi cæ nu areimpulsul de a-øi exprima în lucrærile sale aceastæ conøtiinflæ politicæ. Atunci nu e o conøtiinflæadeværatæ. Pentru cæ aceasta ar însemna cæ arta e o activitate separatæ în societate.Aøa cum spuneai, e doar o profesie: un anumit cuantum de abilitæfli folosite deartist în munca sa.¬ When I read your text I really felt a sense of genuine anger andfeelings behind it. And at the same time what occurred to me wasthat this is the language that one always hears when people arespeaking about the art scene. That is somehow a jargon or a slang,which is being used. And this makes it very difficult to detect the realintentions behind it. And at the same time I feel that you are criticaltoward Manifesta, toward the artscene – but maybe this is exactlywhat the Manifesta Foundation expects from you.√ I am not as cynical as you, I think.¬ It is not cynicism; I just try to think further. So you are claimingyou are innocent…√ I am not claiming innocence at all. Whether I am also beingopportunistic or just not smart enough to recognize the circumstancesI am in... I do think that in many ways I am optimistic.Because I much more think that people can take very small steps todo things. I am not calling people to make a short of political art andbanners, I am just saying to be critical of the conditions in which youare working and be aware of them, and kind of address that.¬ Another thing I would like to know more about, based on yourtext, was your distinction between politicized art and political art.What is that? What is the difference?√ I would say, the reference I make is more about the politicizationof the art community. In the sense of political consciousness, thatshould exist.¬ This means, it should exist, but detached from the formal qualitiesof the art pieces, like there is an abstract painter who has a politicalconsciousness, but it doesn’t have to have any reverberation inhis work…√ Absolutely, it doesn’t have to have reverberation in his work.I think of the art-world as a community and this community needsto have some sort of consciousness as a whole. But that doesn’thave to necessarily be translated in the actual production of thework.¬ Do you think other social strata have more political consciousnessthan the artists’ community?√ Absolutely...¬ For example?√ I work in a specific field and that is the one I know about, andof course I cant really compare because the other work I was doingbefore was related to the civil society, which obviously was completelypoliticized so I don’t want to make a generalization butI think that people working in culture have a bigger and moreimportant role than people who work in other fields, to be kindof politicized. But what is really important relating to individual practicesis that the problem is with the institutions. It is not a problemwith the individuals. Institutions automatically create a kind ofatmosphere around them, which may encourage criticality or mayencourage apathy and that is the point I am trying to make. I am notputting the burden on individuals. Of course it is there in part. But itis not like I am saying that people don’t care. There really aren’t anyvenues for this kind of engagement, and that is what people reallyneed to react against.¬ But in this sense what is your problem with properly political art?√ I don’t have a problem with political art.¬ You said you don’t like that kind of art.√ Then it just comes to personal preferences.¬ Your expectation is that the artistic community should be morepoliticized, but at the same time your personal opinion about artistgroups I just mentioned, like Superflex or N55 and all these people,who are really politically conscious, or activist, or whatever… is thatyou personally don’t really like that kind of art. Isn’t it a contradiction?√ I don’t really see the contradiction. And I do like some kinds ofwhat you would call political art. But it is not exactly the point I tryto make. Because I think people should make whatever art they wantto make.86