A Record of Meetings held by P.D. Ouspensky - HolyBooks.com

instance, about persuasion. What I said was that a political party,within its own country, cannot use machine guns to persuade peopleto accept their views. There exist certain elementary standards: peoplewho use force to make other people accept their own formatory ideasare criminals.Also, I see that some people took it as though I defended war.There is nothing worse than war. But one must make a distinctionbetween those who are responsible for war and simple participation inwar. A soldier taking part in a war is not a criminal.In relation to the bolsheviks: what particularly makes them criminalsis spying, lies and pretence. They pretend that they have cultural aims.Actually it is all simply paid propaganda.MR. M. I don't understand when you say that some people areresponsible for war. How can a machine be responsible?MR. O. You cannot introduce philosophical ideas into a practical conver­sation. For instance, when war broke out I was in India, in Colombo,so I had nothing to do with war. But certainly prime ministers, kings,journalists can—from the ordinary point of view—be called responsiblefor the war. There is a difference: people who take upon themselvesthe managing of states are responsible. At the same time they are notconscious, so they are not responsible. But in the ordinary sense theyare responsible, and a man who is taken as a soldier is not.MR. F. How would you classify non-criminal politics?MR. O. Politics going according to certain standards or rules of thecountry. If politicians take bribes, for instance, this also is criminal. Ifthey use violence, it is criminal; particularly if the views they want toenforce are Utopian, invented, and have no relation to reality.MISS F. Is morality a permanent thing or changing?MR. O. Morality is always different, but moral sense is permanent. Ifpeople have not got moral sense, it is no use to speak to them. If theyhave, they will understand that morality is relative. If they understandthis, and understand at the same time the possibility of objectiveconsciousness and objective truth, then they will understand the possi­bility of objective morality.MISS R. A man can refuse to take part in war if he realizes it is wrong?MR. O. Then he will be shot.MISS R. Surely, if he is drawn into the war, he is taking the sameresponsibility as a prime minister?