SEXIS WRONG

paid money to a pet shop, or they may have paid for the
vet’s bills, and stuff like that, but the question of ownership—it’s
still the animal’s body, it’s the animal’s right to
decide for him or herself.
Bill: I’m picturing people reading this, going, “Well, how does
he know the owner wanted the dog to do this? They must
have thought it was weird.”
Clive: It doesn’t come into it. If the dog wants it, then they’re
really happy.
Bill: Right. It’s using them as a sex toy. Which isn’t very understanding
of the animal’s feelings or preferences. That sort
of goes along with young people being trained to be prostitutes,
and what goes on in Third World countries. But I’m
sure here as well, occasionally, at least.
When I was about fourteen, I remember reading the “Happy
Hooker” series of books [by Xaviera Hollander]. There was
this one great story where she was sort of cooped up in
South Africa with, I think, her sister and her brother-in-law.
She was going kind of stir-crazy in this huge, fabulous mansion
with nothing going on, and eventually she and this German
Shepherd, I think—the pet—got together—
Bill: I notice, as I’m getting more information about this, that
some people differentiate between “bestialist” and “zoophile.”
Do you differentiate, and if so, what does that mean?
Clive: It’s funny. I guess I started recognizing the definition,
the more people I’ve come across. Basically, “bestialists”—they’re
the people who are described a lot—I’ve
never heard any describe themselves as this, but they
basically want to fuck animals and use them as sex toys.
A dog is, basically, a big, portable dick. Or a bitch is a willing
hole that you can stuff something into. And that is totally
uncool. And a “zoophile” is somebody who really—I
hope—does what I do, which is to open themselves up
on many different levels. As if they were having sex with
or making love with a person. I don’t really know about
the two different terms, personally. I guess it exists—I
hope there aren’t bestialists out there, though. The presence
of “sex puppies,” as I think they’re called, kind of
suggests that, but who knows?
Bill: How would someone physically train a
dog to do that? I can’t even imagine.
Clive: It’s always German Shepherds. [Bill laughs.]
Bill: Are they easy? [More laughter.] Are they the right size?
Clive: Yeah, they’re the right size; they’re amenable;
they’re—
Bill: So they’re easy!
Clive: —intelligent...yes. Although Great Danes are easier.
Bill: Oh, my!
Clive: I often wonder about the number of Great Danes on
the Castro and think, “Hmmm.” [Laughter.] Yes, you
were saying—
Clive: It’s always German Shepherds.
Bill: Are they easy?
Clive: Well—the stuff I’ve heard is only hearsay, so I really
shouldn’t comment, But—it’s stuff like, um, training
them to have a sexual response at a very early age, and
to give them sexual responses to certain stimuli, such as
food. Things like that.
Bill: So you’d reward them for sexual acts.
Clive: Yeah. It’s like training a dog. Certain types of training
are important, because, for example, certain types of
dogs are very jittery, highly strung. What you do is, you
train a dog to give it a sense of, there is some kind of order
in their world. And actually that does give them a lot
of trust in their surroundings. But training them for sex is
a trust kind of gone wrong, basically.
Bill: I’m turning red now. Anyway. It was a really good story.
She talked about having sex with this dog, this really amazing
experience, and I got the impression that she didn’t necessarily
pursue that in her sex life, but it was this affair of convenience,
and at the time it served her quite well. I don’t know
whether you would define someone like that as a bestialist or
a zoophile! But it seems like she got what she wanted, the
animal got what it wanted and seemed to be very turned on
by her. I thought that was great! It was the first time I was
really aware someone could have sex with an animal, and I
thought, “Well, isn’t that nice!” [Laughter.]
Clive: Oh, wow. Not having read any of those books, actually,
I can’t say whether she was a bestialist or a zoophile. I
think labels are things that you pretty much discard once
you feel comfortable with what you’re doing. I think labels
in this case are really more restrictive than defining,
so I try not to use the term. I’m just somebody who loves
animals. And I’ve been doing it for a long, long time.
This interview was conducted on November 2, 1996.
PROFILE OF A ZOOPHILE 139